Interview 2: What's the context of 1 Corinthians 7? with Barry Danylak

In this interview Tony Watkins, Fellow for Public Engagement at Tyndale House, interviews Barry Danylak, Executive Director of SEE Global, about his new book, Paul and Secular Singleness in 1 Corinthians 7.  Barry shares about the research he has done looking at extra-biblical sources from around the time Paul wrote to the Corinthians. He describes what family structures would have been like, based on ancient census data, and explains how this is relevant to us today as we approach the challenging passage of 1 Corinthians 7.

We’d love to hear your thoughts on the episode so please do get in touch either on X @tyndale_house or email us communications@tyndalehouse.com

Editing by Tyndale House. 
Music: Acoustic Happy Background used via Adobe Stock with a standard license. 

Transcript

Tony Watkins: Hello. I'm joined today by Barry Danylak, who this morning at coffee time in Tyndale House, gave us a copy of his new book, Paul and Secular Singleness in 1 Corinthians 7.

Barry, thank you very much for joining us.

It's great to have you with us today

and exciting for you to be presenting the book at coffee time

this morning.

Tell us a bit about yourself.

Where are you based?

What do you do there? 

Barry Danylak: So I am a missionary pastor, so I'm ordained with the Evangelical

Missionary Church of Canada. I am based in Calgary, Alberta, and I serve as the executive director of an organization called SEE Global,

which is a very small organization, mostly consisting of myself and a few great

volunteers and collaborators. and our mission really is to equip the Church

on issues around singleness, marriage and family around the world.

We are recognising the reality of a world in which marriage is declining.

And so, our mission really is to think

deeply and theologically in a constructive way about singleness.

But then also about marriage, family and kind of the broader,

rubric of, life within the body of Christ.

Tony: Fantastic.

Barry: And, so that's yeah, that's what we do, and that's

what I've been a part of here for my last four years.

And before that, I was a pastor.

Tony: Okay.

Barry: working in one of Canada's large churches, and I do a little bit of teaching

on the side as well.

Tony: Okay. Yeah. Great.

And what what's the background then to your work in this area?

So you've been doing this for four years, you've been working on this book slightly longer than four years. which we'll come back to in a moment.

so what just give us a little bit of the backstory.

Barry: There's, there's a little bit of a backstory as I, worked for many years

in, as really a lay leader in my church, which originally got my interest

in academia on this issue of,

a theology of singleness.

So, that really formed into a, a nucleus of work,

which became an earlier work.

I did in 2010 with Crossway publishers,

called Redeeming Singleness

so a book on the theology of singleness,

kind of a biblical theology.

That, of course, opens the door to, well,

what about 1 Corinthians 7?

and this very challenging

passage of 40 verses

that Paul gives us in the New Testament

most extended discussion of marriage

in the New Testament.

And yet probably one of the most,

profoundly misunderstood

or hard to understand

or difficult passages.

So it really opened my curiosity

to say, what,

how do we get our head around it?

And that, opened the door,

at the same time to

connect with the then warden of Tyndale

House, Bruce Winter.

Tony: Right.

Barry: who is also a man of the sources

and interested in Corinthians

and New Testament

backgrounds and Greco-Roman,

world and that so

it really opened

the door of exploration for me.

And how do we place

Paul in his context? 

Tony: So when did you first

come to Tyndale House?

Barry: Oh my goodness.

Well, it's been 20 years ago so

it was 2004

In the fall, I, enrolled and began

my studies here and,

fortunately, I, you know,

I was able to finish,

I think I completed my studies in 2012.

Tony: Okay. PhD studies?

Barry: PhD studies. Right.

but it's taken another 12 years

to sort of get from that work and that time

to sort of a readable version

for the general academic community.

Tony: So this, this is an academic monograph

that's based on your thesis

but is quite adapted from it.

Barry: Adapted, updated and made a bit more readable than the actual thesis itself.

So it's intended for somebody

to be able to navigate through it

and, not have to know

Greek and Hebrew and Latin to survive. 

Tony: Who is this book for?

Barry: Right.

Tony: Well, perhaps you should tell us a bit

about what the book is first.

Barry: Yeah.

Tony: You've kind of alluded to it

in what you said about your PhD work.

But, yeah, tell us a little bit more

about what's what's in this.

Barry: Right.

So, the title,

which some might find curious

Paul and secular singleness

in 1 Corinthians 7,

that begs the question of

what do we mean by secular singleness?

And so what in the world is that?

And what does it have to do with Paul

and and his writing in 1 Corinthians?

and I think the best way

to just open it is to contrast it

in that, oftentimes

the singleness that became

largely a focus within

the church is a monastic, a spiritual,

type of singleness,

which considered it to be a spiritual

discipline.

Tony: Yeah. Right.

Barry: So this is a spiritual exercise,

a spiritual discipline that, evolved into the monastic movement

of the Middle Ages and so on.

There's many who who place the beginnings

and the origins of that in 1

Corinthians itself, in the context

of the Corinthian environment

that Paul's engaging.

So, what this book really attempts to do

is challenge the kind of prevailing assumption

that there's

some sort of a pre-monastic

ascetic, possibly gnostic,

view that was anti-marriage,

anti-sex and body

and was really a movement within Corinth

and the Corinthian audience

that Paul's engaging with and moves

to suggest that,

no, maybe,

the Corinthians were much more like,

21st century Europeans and,

and Western culture

in having a much more secular disposition

of not marrying

for much more personal reasons,

and for the personal benefit of

that that would entail.

Tony: Right.

Barry: So, it really sees marriage,

and singleness

primarily in the,

rubric of a political decision

rather than a

theological religious decision,

which we often

think of it this is, you know,

part of my commitment

as a religious ceremony, when in fact,

for I think much of the audience Paul's

engaging with, marriage

was much more of a political act of,

first of all, obedience to the Empire

as there was marriage laws,

it was part of the legal

fabric of the society.

But then also from the standpoint

of being,

sort of a political citizen, of bearing

children, raising children,

this part of building and facilitating,

the imperial

purposes that,

that were present at the, at the time.

So, I think it what we begin to do

here is try to place Paul

in a,

I think, a more probable environment

of a politically motivated decision

that he's

finding in the case of the Corinthians,

as well as a philosophically informed

audience and clearly know that,

the Corinthians

were philosophically astute.

We know, from Luke

that Paul was engaging with Epicureans

and Stoics in Athens

just prior to coming to Corinth.

So we know that these things are

in the air.

it's part of the,

just that

the whole climate in which,

Paul is working with the Corinthians.

And so really what we're looking to do in

this book

is to, place

Paul back in that environment.

and with the addition...

I think the other thing,

if I might say, we seek to do here,

Tony, is,

take advantage

of a broader range of sources.

Tony: Yeah, I was about to ask about that.

Barry: So one of the benefits of working here in Cambridge

is the commitment to engagement

with the source material.

And, when I first arrived

working under the supervision of,

of Dr Winter,

he very much wanted me to

be a student of the sources

and not just the typical

Jewish and, you know, Philo and Josephus,

and we have a kind of our,

common ones.

but to actually get to

what about material sources?

So what about the papyri?

What about the epigraphy?

Tony: Can you just explain what you mean

by epigraphy for people who are not familiar

with that term?

Barry: so epigraphy is just really looking

at the stones that they, but particularly things like gravestones

and any sort of engraved writing that

that was common to the ancient world

because they documented so much in stone.

Tony: Yeah.

Barry: in ways that we no longer do so much.

So the papyri sources are another.

We have a mountain of

papyri

that has been recovered

in, you know, from mid-twentieth century

to the present that continues to be of

benefit for us as scholars.

So for example the

one of the things we look at is

some of the census data.

We recall from Luke that Augustus

takes a census,

brought Mary and Joseph down

to Bethlehem

and yet, what's amazing

is that, you know,

so much of that has been recovered

and documented. So

Tony: So what kind of data are they collecting?

I mean, I when I think of a,

of a contemporary census,

they're asking all kinds of questions.

But I imagine that I always assume that

an ancient census census was just

counting people up writing the names

and that.

Well, and so its somewhere between the two is it?

Barry: We assume it's basically for taxes.

It's about the money, right?

You know,

we think of all the tax collectors,

In fact, the census

data presents

quite a bit of information

on family structure

So we know what a typical household

consisted of

which of course, would include

not only the parents and children.

It could include in-laws,

grandparents, uncles, aunts.

It would include slaves

that might have been in the household.

And it might also include boarders.

So often households would have

people living coming and going,

particularly larger households.

Tony: Right.

Barry: And so much of this, of course, the,

the vast majority has all been lost

because it was typically

written on papyri,

which is easily, it doesn't keep.

But of course, in Egypt

we have benefited from just loads of

of papyri that has maintained

the test of time through

being buried in the sands

and the climate conducive to its preservation.

And so,

what,

you know, scholars have been able to do

is re-collect that.

What does it

what interesting points does that give us?

one might ask

Well, one of the most interesting things

is the dynamic of

men and women in Roman society,

particularly when we move

from the rural areas into cities.

So, Paul

Jesus is working from village

to village right?

He's going, the small Jewish villages. 

Paul, on the other hand,

is going from city to city in the Greco-Roman Empire

So we're now talking mostly

with a completely different

we forget, you know, Paul is a missionary

in his missionary journeys.

He is taking the gospel

to people that culturally

are completely of a different world

and understanding worldview.

Tony: Right.

Barry: They're also highly urbanized.

And most of Paul's

letters are written to cities because.

Tony: He's going to these

to their strategic centres isn’t he?

Barry: Yes the strategic places of the commercial

you know, of Rome and Ephesus in Corinth.

Right. And so,

what that means is that,

the dynamic that Paul's engaging with

is an urban population.

and what the census data would suggest

is that there tended to be a displacement

of male migration into cities

looking for work.

which would create a bit

of an imbalance between males and females.

and it raises the interesting question of

what does that mean

for city life in a typical Greco-Roman city, right.

If you have more men than women.

Well, one, as it been documented

by other scholars, is you're gonna have a

you're gonna have a prostitution problem,

which, of course, is very evident

in Paul's discussion right there

in 1 Corinthians prior

to his marriage discussion.

But it also means

you're going to have a preponderance

of singles, single male, unmarried,

and a potential shortage

of potential eligible

mates to marry

So that is part of the sort of

in the current of the background

that is most likely going on

in the context of an urban environment

like Corinth.

Tony: That's very interesting.

Barry: So it's important for how we read the text

and how we understand

certain bits of Paul's discussion.

Tony: Right.

Barry: 

the, at a number of points,

Paul

One of the side effects

as well, that we can document is

that women would have been more empowered

to divorce,

in an environment where there's

a shortage, relative shortage of women.

And we see that, which is interesting

because when Paul talks

about divorce,

he goes first to the women, not to the men.

He says, you know,

‘Considering those who are married,

let a woman not be,

separated from her husband.’

And then there's an extended discussion

there, and only a passing comment

‘And let not the husbands

divorce their wives.’

So there's something there

that says, why would he focus on women

unless women had a bit more ability

to marry and remarry?

Tony: Right.

Barry: And that informs a bit of the dynamic,

particularly among men who

were likely unfaithful to their wives

as a cultural phenomenon in general. 

So, knowing the words of Jesus, which Paul

seems to make reference to as well

in 1 Corinthians 7,

I think there's reason to think

it's probably an extended commentary

on Jesus's teaching in Matthew 19

and in the Synoptics.

where he also talks about marriage,

singleness and divorce.

and so Paul is aware certainly of,

you know, the permission structure

Jesus gives for unfaithful,

you know, for divorce.

And so he's informing

and highlighting,

based on their context

in a pastoral way that doesn't give,

free rein to the women to remarry.

Tony: Right.

Barry: But acknowledges, yes,

if the men are unfaithful,

you can divorce if you remain single

and faithful in singleness.

Tony: Right.

Barry: So what we see really is

a dynamic here of Paul

offering us a high view of marriage

and a high view of singleness.

Tony: Right.

Barry: And this is what's so refreshing

for today's church that we really,

we want to be teaching,

we want to be preaching a high view

of marriage that respects it

as God intended and ordained it,

that sees our,

sexual relations to be located

within the bond of that husband-

wife relationship,

but also doesn't diminish

the goodness of those

that do choose the celibate life

to honour God in this way.

And the advantages of that

that Paul makes clear as well.

So he really gives us a powerful

and profound, vision

for a high view of marriage and singleness,

both within the, in a balanced way,

within the Christian community

that values

the whole of the body of Christ,

as I think,

was intended by Jesus in his ministry

as well.

Tony: Yeah. Brilliant.

So to go back to the question

that I diverted off.

This is an academic, more academic book.

Who do you want to read this?

Because this is not a book

for an ordinary church member.

Probably. Is it?

Barry: Probably not.

Tony: Books based on PhD don't tend to be

Barry: They don’t tend to be. So yeah, exactly.

So the question is, well, how

is this of benefit to the average pastor

in the pew or the average person

that says, okay,

this is not likely a book

–at a price of £100 by the way–

that is likely

to be picked up and bought,

by the average person.

I think

the best way to think about it is that,

I think it informs the discussion,

on 1 Corinthians 7,

and particularly for those

that are writing commentaries and books of understanding,

so those that write the commentaries

are going to read books like this,

they're then going to try to give a best

understanding of the world

view, the world in which Paul's

ministering to in the commentary,

where it benefits the average pastor

in preaching is the first thing,

one is told to exegete a passage is,

you need to know the context. 

So the basic core questions

a pastor is going to want to know

is, well, what's the context

we're dealing with here?

And on a passage

like 1 Corinthians 7,

context is so key to understanding

and reading it properly.

Tony: Clearly.

Barry: That, the first place one would go

is to a good commentary that one trusts.

And hopefully if the commentary is reading

books like this,

it can bring to bear

in kind of a succinct, useful way,

kind of the

context that then the pastor can quickly

read and assess

draw to their own benefit, to serve their,

their congregants in the pew.

and of course,

for those that are the average,

church attendee,

the benefit might be just in, in sitting

under the good teaching of your pastor,

who is careful in their preparation

by reading the commentaries

which are relying on books like this.

So there's a bit of,

you know, a flow

a logical flow of ideas.

Tony: Yeah.

Barry: From books

like this down into sort of the broader

appreciation

of the average person in the church.

Tony: It makes my heart rejoice

when somebody writes a monograph

and the goal of it

is, is to bless the Church.

Barry: Absolutely.

Tony: because if if we just write monographs

just for the sake of writing a monograph,

who are we helping?

But the Lord gives us

these opportunities in order to

to benefit his people, doesn't he?

It's great to hear you express that so,

so clearly.

So Tyndale House has played

something of a role here

then from you being

based here for your PhD,

what has been the

the value apart from encountering

Bruce Winter and him pushing you

to engage with the sources,

what's been the value of,

of being part of Tyndale House,

connected with Tyndale House

and then returning here from time to time?

Barry: Yes. Well,

I'm, phenomenally grateful for this place.

In fact, I think I did,

jot down in the copy that I've left with

Peter and the library

that this book wouldn't exist

apart from Tyndale House.

And I think it's because of the

not just the fact

that you have such an excellent, superb

collection of resources in one place.

but also the community that's here,

I would call it,

you know, a living community of academic

growth and development and expansion.

And so having the opportunity of meeting

so many people over the years

that I was here to not only discuss

some of these topics with,

I remember having endless discussions

with David Instone-Brewer on divorce,

because of course he’s written quite a bit, looking again

at papyri sources for

divorce and remarriage and

but so many of those discussions that

I think stimulated the

the academic sort of exploration

that was necessary

to really be fruitful,

not only as a PhD student,

but in the broader sense

to really seek a way

to contribute to the life

and growth of the Church as a whole.

And so I think Tyndale House

has just been a exceptional

example of a Christian community

committed to high levels

of robust academic scholarship

in a context that benefits both students

at the university pursuing PhD studies,

but also,

pastors and other academics

who are seeking to continue their research

and writing for further

benefit to the Church.

So it really brings together,

I think, the best of both

for healthy, stimulating discussions

and and of course, the, you know,

obviously the connections with the journal

and the larger foundation and,

and Tyndale fellowship

has been extremely beneficial as well.

So we're grateful for the vision

that has been this place

for over, what,

now, 60 or 70 years or what is it?

Tony: yeah. That's 1945 we opened our doors.

January of 1945

Barry: Coming up to 70 years.

and, is

no its more than 75 years

Tony: 75 years. 

Barry: Yes. 

So, you know,

it's been just a yes, indeed

you’re getting

closer to 80. 

do the math.

But, the continued vision

here that Peter and the staff

and all of you have done

has really enabled,

I think, Tyndale to flourish and and be,

an ever

contemporary and forward-looking resource

for scholarship for the next generation.

so I'm just,

phenomenally grateful for this place.

And I love to come back from time to time.

Tony: Excellent.

Barry: As the Lord opens the door

to continue further work

and see where,

you know, how we can each continue

studies as and, blessing the Church

as we have opportunity to do so.

Tony: Excellent.

Well, thank you so much for

for this really important work.

and for the copy, that's,

that's in the library.

That  will be

well used by anybody who's working on

1 Corinthians here in the future.

It's very satisfying

to get to the end of any project,

but when it's taken quite a few years

that must be particularly

Barry: Especially satisfying to see it done.

Tony: Yeah.

Absolutely.

Is there one key thing

you would like from this book

to get into the minds of pastors

who are preaching 1 Corinthians 7?

Barry: Yes, I think the one key thing is

the world Paul is dealing

with is a lot more like your world

than maybe

you have realized in the past.

And I think that's a benefit for pastors

to know.

Tony: Brilliant.

Barry, thank you so much

Barry: Thank you Tony.