S3E1 Ancient Names – Why are names important?

This new series takes a deep dive into names in the Bible with the help of members of our Old Testament team. 

In this first episode, Tony Watkins speaks to Dr Caleb Howard and Dr George Heath-Whyte, both members of our Old Testament team.  They explain what the decade-long project on Old Testament names is seeking to do at Tyndale House, and they also give a taste of some of the ways we can have a deeper understanding of a passage, by learning more about the meaning of the names mentioned in it. 

Subsequent episodes in the series will be released every week.

Edited by Tyndale House 

Music – Acoustic Happy Background used with a standard license from Adobe Stock.

Transcript

00:00:25:02 - 00:00:28:02

Welcome to series three of the Tyndale House podcast.

00:00:28:04 - 00:00:31:17

Tyndale House is an international centre

for Bible research

00:00:31:37 - 00:00:34:37

and a community of Bible scholars

in Cambridge, England.

00:00:35:08 - 00:00:38:12

Whether you're a regular listener

or are joining us for the first time,

00:00:38:12 - 00:00:40:14

we're really pleased to have you with us.

00:00:40:14 - 00:00:41:02

And if you've missed

00:00:41:02 - 00:00:44:41

previous episodes, you can find those

wherever you get your podcasts from.

00:00:45:28 - 00:00:48:34

This new series that we're starting

today is taking a deep

00:00:48:34 - 00:00:51:46

dive into names in the Bible

with two members of our Old Testament

00:00:51:46 - 00:00:55:16

team, Dr Caleb Howard and Dr

George Heath-Whyte.

00:00:55:35 - 00:00:59:21

So let's start by getting to know

Caleb and George a little bit more first.

00:00:59:21 - 00:01:01:32

Would you like to introduce yourselves

00:01:01:32 - 00:01:04:43

Tell us who you are,

what your role is at Tyndale House.

00:01:04:44 - 00:01:07:38

We'll start with you, Caleb. 

C: Okay, so I'm Caleb Howard.

00:01:07:38 - 00:01:11:30

I am a Research Fellow in Old Testament

and Ancient Near East,

00:01:12:06 - 00:01:16:16

that's the historical context of the Old

Testament, here at Tyndale House.

00:01:17:06 - 00:01:20:11

I lead and manage

the Old Testament project at the moment,

00:01:20:11 - 00:01:23:11

which is focusing on names, as Tony said.

00:01:23:24 - 00:01:27:25

I am an Assyriologist, which means that

I study ancient Mesopotamia

00:01:27:25 - 00:01:31:43

and in particular Mesopotamian texts

and languages, and also history.

00:01:32:41 - 00:01:33:21

I work

00:01:33:21 - 00:01:37:19

on names, but I also work on the Assyrian empire.

00:01:37:19 - 00:01:38:24

So if you think Hezekiah

00:01:38:24 - 00:01:42:13

and the siege of Jerusalem in 701 BC,

it's that empire.

00:01:42:31 - 00:01:44:20

So that's my specialism.

00:01:44:20 - 00:01:45:15

G: Yeah, I'm George.

00:01:45:15 - 00:01:48:15

I am also an Assyriologist

00:01:48:18 - 00:01:51:26

and I'm a Research Associate

in Old Testament and Ancient Near

00:01:51:27 - 00:01:52:38

Eastern Studies.

00:01:52:38 - 00:01:54:49

And I'm also working on the names project.

00:01:54:49 - 00:01:58:44

And my specialism

is sort of the first half of the first

00:01:58:44 - 00:02:02:29

millennium BC, the Assyrian Empire,

the Babylonian Empire.

00:02:03:18 - 00:02:06:04

but for the project I'm working on,

00:02:06:04 - 00:02:09:13

the period a bit earlier than that,

the late second millennium BC

00:02:09:49 - 00:02:12:49

and the kingdom of Ugarit

on the Syrian coast.

00:02:14:12 - 00:02:15:49

T: So we've mentioned the names

00:02:15:49 - 00:02:19:04

project, an onomastics project,

what does onomastics mean?

00:02:19:16 - 00:02:20:33

And what is the project?

00:02:20:33 - 00:02:21:30

What are you trying to do?

00:02:21:30 - 00:02:24:28

C: Yeah, so onomastics is the study of names.

00:02:24:28 - 00:02:27:08

and we're looking specifically

at anthroponomastics

00:02:27:08 - 00:02:30:08

So personal names, people's names.

00:02:30:24 - 00:02:33:24

we're not looking at place names,

we’re not looking at animal names and so on.

00:02:34:34 - 00:02:36:48

As Tony said, there are quite a lot of,

00:02:36:48 - 00:02:39:48

names in, in the Old– personal names

in the Old Testament.

00:02:40:14 - 00:02:41:18

and we're focusing on them.

00:02:41:18 - 00:02:46:39

And if we think about the Old Testament,

as running, from sort of well,

00:02:47:24 - 00:02:51:29

the project is focusing on the Old

Testament, from Abraham to Nehemiah.

00:02:51:30 - 00:02:53:09

There's more in the Old Testament

than that.

00:02:53:24 - 00:02:57:36

But, this is what we've chosen to,

to focus on, partly

00:02:57:36 - 00:03:01:31

because there's just so much extra-

biblical material there

00:03:02:24 - 00:03:04:11

for those periods.

00:03:04:11 - 00:03:06:43

so that would be approximately 2000 BC

00:03:06:43 - 00:03:09:07

down to about 400 BC.

00:03:09:07 - 00:03:10:29

that's a long time.

00:03:10:29 - 00:03:13:41

But we also have a lot of texts

from the time

00:03:13:41 - 00:03:16:41

and place of the Old Testament

between those periods

00:03:16:46 - 00:03:19:46

which we are using to populate a database.

00:03:20:00 - 00:03:23:00

T: By texts from that period,

you don't mean biblical texts, you mean

00:03:23:17 - 00:03:26:18

you're talking about extra-biblical texts

C: I mean extra-biblical texts

00:03:26:19 - 00:03:28:19

C: Yeah, that's right. 

00:03:28:19 - 00:03:29:06

No, that's all right.

00:03:29:06 - 00:03:32:17

So, many of these texts are written

on cuneiform tablets.

00:03:32:17 - 00:03:36:00

So cuneiform is a writing system,

especially used to write

00:03:36:00 - 00:03:39:00

the language, the main language

of Mesopotamia, Akkadian,

00:03:39:24 - 00:03:42:16

which is a language

related to Hebrew and Aramaic and so on.

00:03:42:16 - 00:03:45:36

It's also used to write many other

languages, much like the Latin script.

00:03:46:29 - 00:03:50:03

Some of the texts that we're looking at

are written on ostraca,

00:03:50:03 - 00:03:51:42

so little pieces of pottery,

00:03:51:42 - 00:03:55:11

and also on, on other,

sometimes perishable materials.

00:03:56:20 - 00:03:56:44

The aim

00:03:56:44 - 00:04:00:04

is to set the biblical names,

the names we find in the Old Testament,

00:04:00:37 - 00:04:05:02

in the context of the names that we find

in the text outside the Bible.

00:04:05:26 - 00:04:09:15

So if you think about, I don't know

if you think about the name James,

00:04:10:10 - 00:04:13:22

or Violet in our time

in sort of in the West,

00:04:13:22 - 00:04:16:23

in Britain or in the US or Canada

or somewhere like that,

00:04:16:47 - 00:04:19:47

these are common names

and we recognise them as such.

00:04:20:01 - 00:04:20:17

Right.

00:04:20:17 - 00:04:24:04

If we hear the name James,

we can draw certain conclusions.

00:04:24:04 - 00:04:27:04

For example,

the person is likely to be a man.

00:04:27:25 - 00:04:29:48

because we know the names

in our time and place,

00:04:29:48 - 00:04:33:10

and it stands to reason

that someone like Abraham

00:04:33:10 - 00:04:37:19

or someone like David, or someone

like Nehemiah would have a sense of the

00:04:37:19 - 00:04:41:30

onomasticon, the pool of names,

the set of names, in their own time.

00:04:41:48 - 00:04:46:25

One of our goals in the onomastics

project is to populate the pool of names

00:04:46:25 - 00:04:48:10

from the Old Testament period,

00:04:48:10 - 00:04:51:09

and then to think about the biblical names

in that context.

00:04:51:09 - 00:04:53:00

T: Wow.

00:04:53:00 - 00:04:55:25

And how long is this

project going to take?

00:04:55:25 - 00:04:57:03

G: Well, it's a ten year project.

00:04:57:03 - 00:04:59:39

We're about halfway through.

Is that right?

C: Thereabouts

00:04:59:39 - 00:05:00:36

Terrifying.

00:05:02:15 - 00:05:03:14

Let's get a move on.

00:05:03:14 - 00:05:05:26

T: Terrifying because there's so little time left?

00:05:05:26 - 00:05:07:23

C: Yes. Yes.

00:05:07:23 - 00:05:10:23

It may seem like five years

is a short, a long time, but it isn't

00:05:10:49 - 00:05:11:48

when we're doing this research.

00:05:12:31 - 00:05:16:40

T: And you're looking at a couple of particular places

00:05:16:47 - 00:05:18:37

where the names are from.

00:05:18:37 - 00:05:20:45

George, do you want to say a little bit about those places?

00:05:20:45 - 00:05:25:32

G: Well, I suppose we want to look at, names

from, as Caleb said, from 2000 BC

00:05:25:32 - 00:05:26:33

to 400 BC

00:05:26:33 - 00:05:29:36

but a lot of projects have already done

really good work in collecting

00:05:29:36 - 00:05:32:36

names from various different sites

and time periods.

00:05:32:42 - 00:05:36:19

So we're trying, well at the moment,

our main goal is to fill in the gaps,

00:05:36:42 - 00:05:40:13

in the data where names, we have

all these texts that have been published,

00:05:40:41 - 00:05:43:17

or not, but we don't have,

00:05:43:17 - 00:05:46:17

a good database of the names

from those texts.

00:05:46:44 - 00:05:50:36

and most of these texts,

are very different to the sorts of texts

00:05:50:36 - 00:05:51:21

we get in the Bible.

00:05:51:21 - 00:05:55:10

They're letters or legal documents

or just administrative lists.

00:05:56:06 - 00:06:00:43

and so we at the moment are focusing on

two sites, from the second millennium BC.

00:06:01:25 - 00:06:04:09

so Alalakh and Ugarit,

00:06:04:09 - 00:06:09:11

Alalakh is in southern Turkey, and Ugarit is on the coast of modern day Syria

00:06:10:07 - 00:06:13:25

and Alalakh

has texts from sort of early second

00:06:13:25 - 00:06:17:06

millennium BC,

and the late second millennium BC as well.

00:06:17:06 - 00:06:20:44

And Ugarit has texts from

the late second millennium BC,

00:06:21:25 - 00:06:24:12

together sort of a couple thousand

00:06:24:12 - 00:06:26:47

and by getting the names

from these times and places

00:06:26:47 - 00:06:32:08

we are getting close to,

the period of, well, starting with Abraham

00:06:32:08 - 00:06:36:21

going up through Judges and the conquest, well the conquest and then Judges.

00:06:37:08 - 00:06:39:39

and we're not sort of

in the state of Israel,

00:06:39:39 - 00:06:44:02

but we are in a neighboring state,

around the same time, the same place,

00:06:44:36 - 00:06:47:08

and Ugarit in particular,

is a very international place.

00:06:47:08 - 00:06:51:21

People are moving from all over the known world at the time from Egypt,

00:06:51:21 - 00:06:55:31

from modern day

Turkey, from all over the place

00:06:55:31 - 00:06:57:19

they're doing trade, they’re moving in and out.

00:06:57:19 - 00:07:01:07

and so it's a really good place

to look at the sorts of names that were

00:07:01:07 - 00:07:04:47

and the sorts of people that were

moving around in that time period.

00:07:05:44 - 00:07:07:34

T: It's all really interesting.

00:07:08:32 - 00:07:10:29

How will it help us

00:07:10:29 - 00:07:13:29

in understanding names in the Bible

better?

00:07:14:36 - 00:07:15:01

C: Yeah,

00:07:15:01 - 00:07:18:04

so a straightforward way

that this helps us to understand things

00:07:18:04 - 00:07:21:30

is just to see that

the names in the Bible fit in their time.

00:07:21:37 - 00:07:25:41

So when we find that a name like Abram,

00:07:26:27 - 00:07:30:18

is fairly common

really across the biblical period,

00:07:30:18 - 00:07:33:18

not just in Abraham's own time,

00:07:35:20 - 00:07:35:35

right

00:07:35:35 - 00:07:38:35

there's this sense that, well,

this works, this makes sense.

00:07:39:09 - 00:07:42:16

And, when we sort of populate

the onomasticon

00:07:42:16 - 00:07:45:16

of the time and place

of the Old Testament,

00:07:46:01 - 00:07:48:15

we can find exact correspondences

00:07:48:15 - 00:07:51:22

between the Old Testament names

and the extra-biblical names.

00:07:51:42 - 00:07:54:36

So there's a kind of,

I don't know, on the face of it

00:07:54:36 - 00:07:55:41

correspondence there

00:07:55:41 - 00:07:58:43

that sort of helps us to understand

what's going on in the Bible historically

00:07:59:39 - 00:08:02:39

it helps us to situate the Bible

in its setting.

00:08:02:44 - 00:08:06:46

But there are more specific ways

in which this helps us.

00:08:08:41 - 00:08:09:28

An example

00:08:09:28 - 00:08:12:28

would be the development

of language change.

00:08:13:16 - 00:08:17:00

so language,

all languages change through time.

00:08:17:38 - 00:08:18:19

This is clear.

00:08:18:19 - 00:08:22:11

So if you studied Middle English or Old

English texts, you will see how English

00:08:22:11 - 00:08:23:32

has changed over time.

00:08:23:32 - 00:08:26:45

If you're familiar at all with the King

James Version of the Bible,

00:08:27:15 - 00:08:30:18

you will recognise that King

James English is not modern English.

00:08:31:02 - 00:08:34:20

Well, Hebrew in the language family,

the Semitic languages and the

00:08:36:01 - 00:08:37:25

change through time.

00:08:37:25 - 00:08:41:17

And you can see that going on in common

texts, but you can also see it going on

00:08:41:17 - 00:08:42:13

in names.

00:08:42:13 - 00:08:46:23

Names reflect the change of language through time.

00:08:47:32 - 00:08:50:33

And it's possible on that basis,

to some degree, to establish

00:08:50:33 - 00:08:55:10

a kind of relative chronological order

of where we expect names to occur in time

00:08:56:15 - 00:08:58:41

across the biblical text on the basis

of those names

00:08:58:41 - 00:09:02:09

occurring or not, or features,

linguistic features in names occurring

00:09:02:09 - 00:09:05:47

or not across time, outside of the Bible,

in texts outside of the Bible.

00:09:06:43 - 00:09:09:43

This is also true to some degree

with respect to the kinds of,

00:09:12:34 - 00:09:14:15

words that we find in names.

00:09:14:15 - 00:09:17:21

So names outside of the Bible

and inside of the Bible mean

00:09:17:21 - 00:09:20:21

things, they're translatable.

00:09:20:30 - 00:09:22:38

So they were probably transparent

00:09:22:38 - 00:09:25:38

in their meaning to native speakers.

00:09:26:09 - 00:09:29:27

and so, it's possible over time to see how

00:09:29:41 - 00:09:34:29

elements of names, words in names

come in and out of names through time.

00:09:34:47 - 00:09:38:02

Many of them are pretty stable

across time, but some of them occur

00:09:39:03 - 00:09:41:19

in some periods and not in other periods.

00:09:41:19 - 00:09:44:20

A good example of

this is the divine element,

00:09:44:20 - 00:09:47:47

the divine name Yahweh,

which if you look at the Bible,

00:09:48:46 - 00:09:52:16

is very uncommon in names in early periods

00:09:52:16 - 00:09:55:16

in the Bible before say, well,

00:09:56:26 - 00:09:58:14

Judges and certainly

00:09:58:14 - 00:10:01:14

in, in 1 and 2 Samuel

and following.

00:10:01:22 - 00:10:06:12

So we have you Jochebed, which has

the Yahwistic name, the name Yahweh in it.

00:10:07:02 - 00:10:10:02

in, this is Aaron and Moses’s mother.

00:10:10:04 - 00:10:13:04

And then we have Joshua, Yehoshua,

00:10:13:13 - 00:10:15:24

whose name has the,

00:10:15:24 - 00:10:17:03

name Yahweh in it.

00:10:17:03 - 00:10:19:43

But those are the only two

in that early period.

00:10:19:43 - 00:10:24:01

And increasingly, as time

goes, the name Yahweh appears in names

00:10:24:19 - 00:10:27:07

more and more, as time goes on.

00:10:27:07 - 00:10:29:41

So that by the later

period of Israelite history,

00:10:29:41 - 00:10:32:41

just before the exile

and even during the exile,

00:10:32:42 - 00:10:37:28

the name Yahweh occurs in people's names

very often, very commonly.

00:10:38:03 - 00:10:40:41

So you can see how in that case, it's

a matter of a divine name

00:10:40:41 - 00:10:42:07

appearing or not

00:10:42:07 - 00:10:43:19

through time.

00:10:43:19 - 00:10:45:46

So in that later period,

then you've got people like

00:10:46:44 - 00:10:49:41

Hezekiah, Joshua,

00:10:49:41 - 00:10:53:20

Jehoiakim and

and all of these are including

00:10:54:39 - 00:10:56:00

the divine name.

00:10:56:00 - 00:10:58:41

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Exactly.

00:10:58:41 - 00:11:00:13

yes. Yeah.

00:11:00:13 - 00:11:03:13

So Yehoyakin for example,

00:11:04:11 - 00:11:05:27

means Yeho,

00:11:05:27 - 00:11:08:27

which is a shortened form of Yahweh.

00:11:09:46 - 00:11:12:06

‘will establish’ or ‘has established’,

00:11:12:06 - 00:11:15:06

depending on how you analyse

the verb in Yehoyakin

00:11:16:10 - 00:11:19:10

and this is a fairly common reality.

00:11:19:13 - 00:11:21:27

T: Yeah.

00:11:21:27 - 00:11:23:00

Great.

00:11:23:00 - 00:11:26:15

So we'll hear more about that

as we go through the series.

00:11:27:18 - 00:11:31:29

We've already picked up

on the idea that names have meanings.

00:11:31:29 - 00:11:36:12

And, the meaning of names

seems to be particularly important

00:11:36:33 - 00:11:41:23

in the Bible in a way

that it doesn't feel like it does to us.

00:11:41:23 - 00:11:45:19

And yet, when children are given names,

even in our world, we often do

00:11:45:19 - 00:11:47:24

think about their meanings. 

00:11:47:24 - 00:11:48:48

Tell us about your names. 

00:11:48:48 - 00:11:51:01

What do your names mean?

00:11:51:01 - 00:11:54:33

G: Well, George is from the Greek word for farmer.

00:11:55:31 - 00:11:56:12

There you go.

00:11:56:12 - 00:11:59:12

T: Okay, great. But you’re not a farmer. 

G: But I think

00:11:59:12 - 00:12:02:12

one thing that's interesting about my name

is that I'm not a farmer,

00:12:02:23 - 00:12:06:09

and the meaning of the name,

I don't think came into the choice

00:12:06:09 - 00:12:10:40

of the name, but my father was reading

a biography of George Whitefield,

00:12:11:36 - 00:12:14:14

when him and my mum

were thinking about names

00:12:14:14 - 00:12:17:18

and apparently decided that sounds like,

that would be a good name.

00:12:17:29 - 00:12:19:41

So not that I'm necessarily named

after George Whitefield, but,

00:12:19:41 - 00:12:23:29

sort of, my name was inspired

by a figure in history.

00:12:23:29 - 00:12:27:22

So that sort of meaning of the name, even

though it's not the sort of translatable

00:12:27:22 - 00:12:29:17

meaning of the name, was important.

00:12:29:17 - 00:12:31:40

But that's, yeah, that's my name. 

00:12:31:40 - 00:12:33:37

C: Yours is more interesting than mine

00:12:33:37 - 00:12:34:16

G: Yours is funnier though

00:12:34:16 - 00:12:37:07

C: Yeah, yeah. So Caleb means dog

00:12:38:27 - 00:12:40:28

of course it's a biblical name.

00:12:40:28 - 00:12:42:16

Or does it mean that?

00:12:42:16 - 00:12:44:23

So given 

00:12:44:23 - 00:12:47:17

C: the way that George–

G: Trying to prove that it doesn't. 

C: No it does

00:12:47:17 - 00:12:47:42

It does.

00:12:47:42 - 00:12:49:07

But, the way that George has

00:12:49:07 - 00:12:52:07

just problematised

the whole notion of names meaning things,

00:12:53:24 - 00:12:56:17

so my parents, I think, gave me the name

00:12:56:17 - 00:12:59:17

because, of the biblical character

00:12:59:21 - 00:13:02:36

and the idea that in Joshua,

00:13:04:13 - 00:13:06:42

and other books, Caleb is a faithful person.

00:13:06:42 - 00:13:09:25

He's a person who obeys the Lord,

trusts God.

00:13:09:25 - 00:13:13:02

And I think the idea is that they gave me

the name in connection with their sense

00:13:13:02 - 00:13:16:44

that that was an admirable

sort of person to be.

00:13:18:03 - 00:13:20:27

So does the name to them mean dog,

00:13:20:27 - 00:13:24:37

or does the name to them mean

the character behind the name

00:13:25:11 - 00:13:26:36

in the Bible,

00:13:27:36 - 00:13:29:45

and then

potentially it gets connected to me.

00:13:29:45 - 00:13:31:28

Maybe I live up to it and maybe I don't.

00:13:31:28 - 00:13:32:09

Probably not.

00:13:32:09 - 00:13:35:09

But, anyway, the idea is that I would.

00:13:36:04 - 00:13:39:22

So etymologically we might say

that is to say in terms of the,

00:13:39:22 - 00:13:42:46

the original sense of the name,

where it comes from linguistically,

00:13:43:32 - 00:13:46:32

Caleb comes from the Semitic word

meaning dog.

00:13:47:00 - 00:13:50:00

It occurs in lots of Semitic languages.

00:13:50:47 - 00:13:52:38

And it's not clear to me

00:13:52:38 - 00:13:55:40

whether dog was a good thing

or a bad thing.

00:13:55:41 - 00:13:57:25

Maybe dog is a loyal notion.

00:13:57:25 - 00:14:01:46

Maybe dog is, I don't know, a low notion

of some kind, difficult to know.

00:14:01:46 - 00:14:04:16

G: And we do find lots of people

with that name

00:14:04:16 - 00:14:05:48

outside the Bible as well

00:14:05:48 - 00:14:07:16

from those sorts of times and places.

00:14:07:16 - 00:14:12:09

So obviously, presumably it wasn't an

awful thing to be called Caleb, but–

00:14:12:16 - 00:14:13:02

C: Yeah, maybe.

00:14:13:02 - 00:14:14:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:14:27 - 00:14:17:38

So it's worth just thinking about this

notion of a name’s meaning right?

00:14:17:38 - 00:14:20:32

Sort of its etymological sense, its original sense,

00:14:20:32 - 00:14:25:10

we might say its original linguistic

sense, is not necessarily the same thing

00:14:25:10 - 00:14:28:25

as the meaning, the associative

meaning that it has in the minds of its

00:14:29:12 - 00:14:31:43

bearers or bestowers of names.

00:14:32:41 - 00:14:35:08

So my name etymologically

00:14:35:08 - 00:14:38:08

means Caleb, but there's a connection

with a biblical character.

00:14:38:24 - 00:14:39:24

No sorry it means, dog,

00:14:39:24 - 00:14:41:20

but there's a connection with the biblical character.

00:14:41:20 - 00:14:45:21

T: Yeah, mine apparently means the smallest of a litter of pigs.

00:14:45:27 - 00:14:48:27

And I have absolutely no idea

why my parents gave me this name.

00:14:48:43 - 00:14:50:39

I think it has no particular significance.

00:14:50:39 - 00:14:52:43

I think they just liked the sound of it.

00:14:52:43 - 00:14:56:05

But I never think about the meaning of it

in normal life.

00:14:56:05 - 00:14:59:42

It's only in these kind of conversations

where it's an even funnier name

00:14:59:42 - 00:15:01:47

than dog.

00:15:01:47 - 00:15:03:45

Yeah.

00:15:03:45 - 00:15:06:28

At least

a dog has connotations of faithfulness.

00:15:06:28 - 00:15:10:07

I'm not sure what the what connotations

a runt has,

00:15:11:37 - 00:15:12:37

but there we are.

00:15:12:37 - 00:15:15:30

I ended up fairly tall,

so it wasn't too bad, but,

00:15:17:03 - 00:15:18:43

in day to day life,

00:15:18:43 - 00:15:22:14

we may know the meaning of our names,

but we don't think about it.

00:15:22:31 - 00:15:25:31

Now, obviously this is speculation, but

00:15:26:05 - 00:15:28:40

to what extent do you think that would

also be true in the ancient world?

00:15:28:40 - 00:15:32:00

Do you think people, Caleb, for instance,

do you think he would have

00:15:34:10 - 00:15:35:36

kind of gone through life with that sense,

00:15:35:36 - 00:15:38:36

maybe that sense of faithfulness or,

00:15:40:28 - 00:15:41:44

or somebody else

00:15:41:44 - 00:15:45:27

with, whose name has a very distinctive

meaning,

00:15:45:39 - 00:15:48:27

Abraham, ‘exalted father’,

00:15:48:27 - 00:15:51:48

maybe he was aware of the meaning

of his name, because it was so ironic

00:15:51:48 - 00:15:54:48

for most of his life

that he wasn't a father at all.

00:15:56:21 - 00:16:00:00

Or do you think people,

as in the modern world, it's a label,

00:16:00:00 - 00:16:01:05

it's part of our identity.

00:16:01:05 - 00:16:05:17

But the meaning is, it's

just it's something in the background?

00:16:06:23 - 00:16:10:14

G: Yeah it’s difficult. There is this concept called

nominative determinism

00:16:11:00 - 00:16:16:05

whereby I, sort of making it up,

but sort of like people with the surname

00:16:16:05 - 00:16:19:43

Judge are statistically more likely

to go into the legal profession

00:16:19:43 - 00:16:22:19

than people with other surnames or that sort of thing.

00:16:22:19 - 00:16:24:49

T: The first marine biologist I ever met

was called Jim Dolphin.

00:16:24:49 - 00:16:26:29

G: There you go. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

00:16:26:29 - 00:16:30:25

So it seems that there is a way that

if people do know the meaning of the word,

00:16:30:36 - 00:16:33:10

their names, or if their names do have obvious meaning,

00:16:33:10 - 00:16:37:28

that maybe somehow it does sort of tend

to influence their decisions as they,

00:16:37:35 - 00:16:40:25

as they’re growing up, perhaps.

00:16:40:25 - 00:16:42:39

It would be interesting to think about how we

00:16:42:39 - 00:16:45:33

how we think of people

we know that do have names

00:16:45:33 - 00:16:50:12

with obvious meaning in our language,

like Hope or Lily or something.

00:16:51:36 - 00:16:54:36

My experience, if I think about it, is I'm

not often

00:16:54:36 - 00:16:57:37

thinking about the meaning of a friend's name,

00:16:58:38 - 00:17:02:15

even if it does have a very obvious

meaning in the language. For me,

00:17:02:17 - 00:17:05:48

when I'm thinking of someone called Hope,

I'm thinking of the person

00:17:05:48 - 00:17:08:48

and not the meaning of the name,

but when it come, when it

00:17:09:04 - 00:17:11:38

in certain instances I might think, oh,

that's funny, she's called Hope

00:17:11:38 - 00:17:14:34

and she's lost

all hope in something or whatever it is.

00:17:14:34 - 00:17:16:47

T: And I guess actually

just on the back of that there,

00:17:16:47 - 00:17:20:41

there are some names that are more likely,

I suppose, because the meaning is so

00:17:21:04 - 00:17:22:46

very obvious, like Hope,

00:17:22:46 - 00:17:25:09

we don't even have to stop

and think about it.

00:17:25:09 - 00:17:28:09

But a name like Grace or Joy,

00:17:28:21 - 00:17:31:43

I think about the meaning of their names

more often than I would

00:17:32:12 - 00:17:34:19

George, George the farmer or whatever.

00:17:34:19 - 00:17:35:10

G: Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:36:23 - 00:17:37:16

C: Yeah.

00:17:37:16 - 00:17:40:16

Well it's worth just thinking about the fact that

00:17:40:41 - 00:17:43:41

in our language, in English,

00:17:44:22 - 00:17:46:41

the meanings of names are more readily

available to us

00:17:46:41 - 00:17:50:08

in common speech

than maybe in other languages.

00:17:50:08 - 00:17:53:08

And I think this is certainly true

for Hebrew in the Bible.

00:17:53:39 - 00:17:57:35

and in related languages

outside of the Bible, we're finding that

00:17:58:26 - 00:18:01:31

names regularly have pretty transparent

meanings to native speakers,

00:18:02:24 - 00:18:05:20

in the sources that we're reading,

which is quite different from

00:18:05:20 - 00:18:08:39

our situation,

which means that we have to sort of

00:18:08:42 - 00:18:11:44

take a step back and think, well,

how would they have been engaging

00:18:11:44 - 00:18:14:10

with names

a bit differently then than we would?

00:18:14:10 - 00:18:17:21

T: So it would be more like the Hope, Joy, Grace,

00:18:17:34 - 00:18:20:29

kind of names than the Caleb, George

G: Yeah, with basically every name

00:18:20:29 - 00:18:21:15

C: Exactly.

00:18:21:15 - 00:18:22:07

Right, right.

00:18:22:07 - 00:18:24:30

G: But we don't translate the names

in our Bible.

00:18:24:30 - 00:18:26:33

So we get these,

you know, when people are doing

00:18:26:33 - 00:18:29:02

their readings on Sunday morning,

they stumble across the names.

00:18:29:02 - 00:18:31:38

Everyone thinks it's quite funny,

but yeah, we don't translate the names,

00:18:31:38 - 00:18:34:31

whereas they would have had obvious meaning

00:18:34:31 - 00:18:39:03

most of them to the original readers

and hearers of the Bible.

00:18:39:04 - 00:18:39:16

T: Yeah.

00:18:40:14 - 00:18:40:46

C: It's clear that when

00:18:40:46 - 00:18:43:46

people engage with names,

00:18:44:41 - 00:18:47:41

the meanings of which are clear to them

00:18:48:03 - 00:18:49:32

that in their minds

00:18:49:32 - 00:18:52:46

and I think in our minds we can engage

with names like Joy and so on

00:18:53:27 - 00:18:58:40

in a purely kind of name

sense, label-for-person sense

00:18:58:40 - 00:19:01:16

and then also in

a kind of lexical sense,

00:19:01:16 - 00:19:02:33

where we're thinking about the meaning of it.

00:19:02:33 - 00:19:06:28

We can move back and forth along

a spectrum between those two extremes

00:19:06:48 - 00:19:12:07

in our minds, and certain situations

can flag up the lexical meaning of a name.

00:19:12:25 - 00:19:15:01

Joy is a joyful notion. 

00:19:15:01 - 00:19:18:01

Violet is a flower and also a colour

and so on.

00:19:19:19 - 00:19:21:21

And we can use that,

00:19:21:21 - 00:19:24:21

we can activate that aspect of our brains,

that active,

00:19:24:21 - 00:19:27:21

that aspect of our knowledge of the

onomasticon.

00:19:27:28 - 00:19:30:28

But equally, we can simply refer

to a person who is called Violet

00:19:30:39 - 00:19:33:22

or refer to a person who's called George,

even though we now

00:19:33:22 - 00:19:35:26

we know that his name means

farmer. Maybe I'll never

00:19:36:40 - 00:19:38:26

yeah, maybe always think of that now.

00:19:38:26 - 00:19:39:48

But George is not a farmer he’s

00:19:39:48 - 00:19:42:13

an academic Assyriologist.

00:19:42:13 - 00:19:44:48

Yes, but we can move back and forth

between these senses.

00:19:44:48 - 00:19:45:13

Right.

00:19:45:13 - 00:19:48:49

Name is a label for a person

versus name being

00:19:49:28 - 00:19:52:17

a word in the language.

00:19:52:17 - 00:19:55:14

And it seems likely that there was this

00:19:55:14 - 00:19:59:11

kind of moving back and forth

going on in the ancient world.

00:19:59:11 - 00:20:03:16

We find this in the Bible, for example,

when children are named

00:20:03:16 - 00:20:06:42

and some connection is drawn

between the circumstances of birth

00:20:07:25 - 00:20:10:25

and the meaning of the name

or the sounds of the name.

00:20:11:17 - 00:20:14:45

and this is, you’ll recognise

this is a common theme, particularly

00:20:14:45 - 00:20:18:03

in the book of Genesis, but also to

some degree in other books as well.

00:20:18:46 - 00:20:21:40

T: And we'll talk particularly

about that in our next episode.

00:20:23:21 - 00:20:25:44

Just going back to the nominative determinism thing

00:20:25:44 - 00:20:29:00

there’s a—and maybe we'll talk

about this next episode as well—

00:20:29:00 - 00:20:32:00

but let's just briefly look at it now.

00:20:32:21 - 00:20:34:43

There is the sense

00:20:34:43 - 00:20:39:07

of some people in the Bible

having names that are almost prophetic

00:20:39:46 - 00:20:43:32

for them, maybe is the best way of putting it so

00:20:44:00 - 00:20:46:16

so Caleb,

00:20:46:16 - 00:20:49:03

you know, he's called Caleb as a young kid

00:20:49:03 - 00:20:51:48

and did his parents

have a connotation of faithfulness there?

00:20:51:48 - 00:20:54:48

But he grows up to be a faithful man.

00:20:55:44 - 00:20:58:44

Abraham, ‘exalted father’,

00:20:58:46 - 00:21:00:36

the Lord says your name is going to be

00:21:00:36 - 00:21:03:03

Abraham,

00:21:03:03 - 00:21:05:29

which is ‘father of many’

00:21:05:29 - 00:21:08:12

I think. Okay.

00:21:08:12 - 00:21:09:42

That's how it's often, often said.

00:21:09:42 - 00:21:11:35

We'll come back to that.

00:21:11:35 - 00:21:14:00

and then eventually

he does become a father, but,

00:21:14:00 - 00:21:16:49

maybe he's a bit of a special case,

but there are,

00:21:16:49 - 00:21:19:07

so there are people who

seem to live out their name,

00:21:20:20 - 00:21:22:19

and other people who don't.

00:21:22:19 - 00:21:25:38

So when we're reading Scripture,

should we be

00:21:26:06 - 00:21:30:18

should we be always reading with an eye

to the meaning of their name

00:21:30:40 - 00:21:35:18

or is it okay

just to be thinking of them as labels?

00:21:37:26 - 00:21:39:00

how does all of that work?

00:21:39:00 - 00:21:39:42

C: that's very helpful.

00:21:39:42 - 00:21:41:29

T: Maybe that's an over-complicated question.

00:21:41:29 - 00:21:42:21

C: No, no, it's very helpful.

00:21:42:21 - 00:21:43:14

I think a good guide to

00:21:43:14 - 00:21:46:38

this is just whether the text is already

making something of the name.

00:21:47:05 - 00:21:47:29

Right.

00:21:47:29 - 00:21:50:00

If that's already

a live issue in the text

00:21:50:00 - 00:21:52:43

then, and I think actually Abraham is a good example,

00:21:52:43 - 00:21:57:09

however you analyse that name

etymologically, the text does

00:21:57:09 - 00:22:02:49

make a connection between Avram ‘exalted

father’ and Avraham, ‘father of-’

00:22:03:15 - 00:22:07:24

well, I think it's still ‘exalted father’,

but with an added ‘h’

00:22:07:38 - 00:22:10:41

which is very interesting,

but it sounds like hamon,

00:22:11:05 - 00:22:14:38

which is this word from multitude

which also occurs in the context.

00:22:14:38 - 00:22:18:07

you will be a father of a multitude

of peoples, of nations.

00:22:19:01 - 00:22:20:27

And so there's a sound connection.

00:22:20:27 - 00:22:23:30

So it's important to recognise that

the connections made in the Bible between

00:22:23:30 - 00:22:26:36

names and circumstances around birth

and the person's life

00:22:26:36 - 00:22:29:44

and so on, are not merely around

the meaning of the name,

00:22:30:03 - 00:22:33:48

but also around the sounds in connection

with other words in the context.

00:22:34:26 - 00:22:38:02

So this is a I think this is a fairly common reality.

00:22:38:02 - 00:22:41:08

So you can see it in the case of Samuel,

and I think you can see it also

00:22:41:08 - 00:22:44:08

in the shift from Avram to Avraham.

00:22:44:11 - 00:22:47:31

The etymological meaning between Avram

and Avraham, I think, is 

00:22:47:33 - 00:22:49:01

I think they're identical.

00:22:49:01 - 00:22:51:33

And in some Semitic languages

we have the addition of an ‘h’

00:22:51:33 - 00:22:55:05

in a word like 

this raham versus ram

00:22:55:31 - 00:22:59:20

ram is this exalted

word with the ‘h’ added raham.

00:23:00:30 - 00:23:01:17

this is

00:23:01:17 - 00:23:04:26

not doesn't change

the meaning of the word etymologically,

00:23:04:32 - 00:23:07:26

but it does draw a connection

then between another,

00:23:07:26 - 00:23:11:20

between the name and another term

in the context in which it's explained.

00:23:11:42 - 00:23:13:34

And so there's a sound connection.

00:23:13:34 - 00:23:17:26

So it's worth thinking, sort

of broadening our scope of understanding

00:23:17:38 - 00:23:20:38

of the relationship

between names and the reasons

00:23:20:38 - 00:23:24:26

for which they're given to include

not just etymology or lexemes

00:23:24:27 - 00:23:28:46

and meaning,

but also sounds. Broadly correspondence

00:23:28:46 - 00:23:32:06

is the order of the day rather

than a particular type of correspondence.

00:23:32:06 - 00:23:33:33

T: Yeah. Right.

00:23:33:33 - 00:23:36:22

So that's very interesting about Abraham

00:23:36:22 - 00:23:39:22

because that makes me wonder if

00:23:39:25 - 00:23:43:01

if Avram and Avraham

really mean the same thing

00:23:44:07 - 00:23:46:28

and yet the Lord wants him

00:23:46:28 - 00:23:49:28

to think of himself as Avraham.

00:23:50:24 - 00:23:53:48

Is that hearing of

00:23:53:48 - 00:23:58:08

of the sound

therefore going to more remind him of

00:23:58:28 - 00:24:01:44

what the Lord is going to do for him

than his original name did?

00:24:01:44 - 00:24:03:43

I don't know,

I mean, this is complete speculation

00:24:03:43 - 00:24:07:07

about what's going on in Abraham's mind

a long time ago.

00:24:07:13 - 00:24:09:28

but yeah, that's very interesting.

00:24:09:28 - 00:24:12:28

C: There's a very interesting case

in Samuel,

00:24:13:02 - 00:24:15:27

whose name means, ‘name of God’,

00:24:15:27 - 00:24:16:22

Shmuel,

00:24:18:21 - 00:24:19:31

it means ‘name of God.’

00:24:19:31 - 00:24:22:35

And in the context

of the giving of the name Samuel

00:24:24:15 - 00:24:27:10

there’s not so much being made

in the name of God.

00:24:27:10 - 00:24:30:48

rather, when Hannah names him,

she uses the Hebrew word

00:24:30:48 - 00:24:33:48

for ask repeatedly, sha’al.

00:24:35:36 - 00:24:39:24

In fact, five times

in the context of Samuel's naming,

00:24:39:46 - 00:24:45:03

sha’al is used to explain the circumstances

of Samuel being born,

00:24:45:16 - 00:24:48:15

and even to explain the giving of the name.

Sha’al,

00:24:48:15 - 00:24:51:49

‘to ask’, she says, I asked him from God,

and the Lord is given him.

00:24:52:23 - 00:24:55:23

And so she's called his name Shmuel,

‘name of God’.

00:24:55:49 - 00:24:57:45

Now, of course,

there are theological connections

00:24:57:45 - 00:25:00:18

and etymological connections

between name of God

00:25:00:18 - 00:25:03:04

and the circumstances

of God's work in Samuel's life,

00:25:03:04 - 00:25:04:34

naturally.

00:25:04:34 - 00:25:08:34

but she makes this connection and I think

on the basis of sound similarities,

00:25:08:45 - 00:25:12:49

sha’al and the forms

in which it occurs in 1 Samuel 1

00:25:13:40 - 00:25:18:16

sounds similar to Shmuel, they share

all of the same sounds. 

00:25:18:16 - 00:25:19:26

T: Apart from the ‘m’ sound

00:25:19:26 - 00:25:20:02

C: Yeah

00:25:20:02 - 00:25:22:28

C: The ‘m’ sound

T: Which is quite an introduction into his name.

00:25:22:28 - 00:25:25:47

C: Yeah, it is,

but there's an interesting thing here

00:25:25:47 - 00:25:31:01

that, the last instance of

of the word sha’al ‘to ask’ in 1 Samuel

00:25:31:01 - 00:25:34:16

1 is a passive participle sha’ul,

00:25:34:16 - 00:25:37:46

which means ‘asked one’, ‘one asked for’.

00:25:37:46 - 00:25:40:46

And she refers to him

as one asked for from God.

00:25:41:00 - 00:25:44:20

But sha’ul sounds exactly like Saul.

00:25:44:27 - 00:25:48:09

King Saul, who,

as we keep reading in 1 Samuel,

00:25:48:10 - 00:25:51:49

becomes a major figure in relation

to Samuel himself.

00:25:51:49 - 00:25:56:03

And so there's this flagging literarily

in the text of a major character

00:25:56:03 - 00:25:56:41

that will come up.

00:25:56:41 - 00:25:58:34

And if you can think about this sort of

00:25:58:34 - 00:26:01:34

from the point of view

of having never read that story before,

00:26:01:49 - 00:26:06:15

it's a sort of latent notion that arises

again further along in the story

00:26:06:25 - 00:26:09:25

and you may recognise it

if you've read from beginning to end,

00:26:09:30 - 00:26:12:33

or if you read it already

before you see it and you think,

00:26:12:33 - 00:26:16:27

‘Ah Saul is coming up,’ and there's

this connection already between Samuel and Saul

00:26:16:27 - 00:26:18:48

so this is part of the literary

brilliance of the biblical text.

00:26:18:48 - 00:26:19:49

T: Yeah.

00:26:19:49 - 00:26:20:39

Brilliant.

00:26:20:39 - 00:26:22:38

Well, that's a great start to this series

00:26:22:38 - 00:26:24:37

I think, we've got a lot more

to talk about.

00:26:24:37 - 00:26:29:30

And next time we'll be talking about

the giving of names more specifically

00:26:29:41 - 00:26:33:39

at birth, why people are given

the names they are, what those names mean.

00:26:34:04 - 00:26:35:32

Maybe some of the changing patterns.

00:26:35:32 - 00:26:37:41

But for now, great, thank you very much.